Numenarh and terrorism…..

Do not get me started. Terrorist are bad business and I dislike those guys the same way a beauty queen would dislike a sudden scar on the face. Or being set afire. I don’t think resources and attention, positive attention, should be granted to openly terrorist governments or to any terrorist state. Terroritst state, speaks to the mindset. I dislike hearing MJ has traveled to this place but I am not going to condemn him for it. But I would caution, him, if I could that turning his back on the United States is not the way to go. Lots of people still support MJ here in the US. In additon he is first and foremost an American citizen and I believe any citizen should stand up for his country when push comes to shove. Terrorist are shoving right now…attacking and plotting. What about the bombings in England? Horrid. I think MJ’s vacation site is less important than the fact that there are threats outside, and some within, America that want our way of life to end. They want fear and hatered to rule supreme. Arguments about racism and MJ and all that is important but if there is no America to come home to at the end of the day then what was the point? People of all walks of life need to try and find ways to help make America more safe for Americans. We all live here no matter our differences. A common goal for anyone should be to save their country from terror and the men and women that support such terror. To find common ground on defending our own country, America, should come second nature. If it does not…………….

I find the attitudes of people that say: “Well, North Korea cannot reach us with nuclear missles so I don’t care what they do.” I don’t like that kind of attitude. I could have stronger words but I will hold off. To protect the freedom of America means we have to protect the freedom of other too. We as a society cannot let loose of that truth.
Protect the world…Protect America. An ounce of prevention is worth….
You know?

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26 Responses to “Numenarh and terrorism…..”

  1. Maahes Says:

    This is a bit pathetic really. One of the reasons so few people in America had any problem watching the worlds most recognized figure dragged through the streets and tarred and feathered on international television is that they lacked empathy. It was difficult to identify with the king of pop especially after it appeared that his bubble had been popped. He was tried and lost in the court of public opinion.
    I live in Egypt and the USA. In Egypt and most countries in the world, young boys become fast friends and sidekicks to unrelated men who are visiting or have resources they don’t. They share their days with you and they even try to stay up through the night. I cant remember the last time I spent a night entirely by myself in Egypt. In rich luxury villas or on blankets in the desert there has always been some one that fell asleep beside me and since this is the way we have lived for thousands of years I dont question it. But then like most Egyptians and other North or Eastern Africans I cant speak for the rest of Africa because I have not traveled extensively elsewhere - be assured that most people have never so much as entertained a thought so disgusting as to exploit the innocence of a child. Children are fascinating and make great pals because they have no sexual identity no ulterior motives or gratification urges outside of nurturing their imaginations or growing bodies-. I love children and fortunately when I return to the mother land of Africa I am blessed with children to adore.
    WHy do Americans think so little of children? And how could anyone molest a child? THat so many are willing to believe that Michael Jackson is this sexual predator
    says more about this puritanical society than it does about Michael Jackson.
    To America Jackson is a washed up pop celebrity an old whore bascially.
    TO the rest of the world Michael Jackson is this century’s Khalil Gibrain and where poets in the past were obliged to write their prose in pen on paper Michael Jackson transforms them into physical manifestations that you can hear and they give you goosebumps all over. He is a supernova. This entire trial was intended to silence the worlds most belolved living figure. That he remained in this hateful country all these years is a miracle. Look at how your media has treated him! He is the punch line to nine out of ten late night jokes and his entire genuis is regurgitated by everyone and badly with no credit to Jackson. Now you go on and write that Arabs are bad people and the Jackson should stand beside America!
    Michael Jackson belongs to the world and we to him. If anyone can inspire hope and harmony in this blood obsessed time it is one Michael Joseph Jackson.
    Dont believe everything you read about people from the middle east or africa.
    We are not blood sucking monsters though they exist in our society as they do yours.

  2. Yvette Says:

    Tell’em Maahes!

  3. roseena Says:

    maahes, your post is frightening for so many reasons. you view mj as an idol, he is not a god. In addition you seem to have a hatred for america. You need to make your full-time address in egypt, or any place other than America. This is what i do not understand… you do not respect or appreciate America and our bravery to assure freedoms, yet you have the nerve to dwell in our country? Your linking of America to the accusations and trial of mj, to the arabs is pathetic. America is a wonderful country and as an American, i would support, protect, defend it, and if a person has negative views of our country, they do not deserve the privilege of living here.

  4. Sue Says:

    Maahes,
    Well.. Mr. Lion-God…yes, I looked up the meaning of your name. (Seems pretty conceted to call yourself that!) It would seem we have now heard from the president of the MJ Fan Club/Egypt Division. Where do you get off telling us, as Americans, what we feel? I really don”t care WHAT you do in Egypt, here in AMERICA, adult men do NOT take little boys into their beds as “sidekicks” or company. It disturbs me that you are proud that you “cant remember the last time you spent a night entirely by yourself in Egypt.” As far as I’m concerned, you should stay in Egypt if that is your normal behavior!
    You compared MJ with Khalil Gibrain, who is also comapred to a God by your people.

    This is what I found on Gibran.
    “Khalil Gibran is drawn as by a magnet to those who by circumstance or choice dwell outside the pale of conventional society. The criminal, the hermit, the tramp, the heretic, the deviant and the eccentric are some of the specimens that go to form this human conglomeration.”

    Well let’s compare, yes MJ lives as a hermit, yes, MJ is a deviant, yes, MJ is eccentric, yes he is a criminal, yes MJ dwells outside the pale of conventional society, NO, MJ is NOT a God.
    I agree with Rossena….”America is a wonderful country and as an American, i would support, protect, defend it, and if a person has negative views of our country, they do not deserve the privilege of living here.”
    America has no need or use for people like you.

  5. Maahes Says:

    Im surprised at how close minded and bigoted you are. For your information I was born name Maahes as the name has been in our family for some three thousand years.
    I am not a Michael Jackson Fan. I do not consider him a god. What I said had you actually read it carefully, is that in America where i was actually born, there is a tendency to wrap the mildew blanket of puritans a little too tightly.
    What I wrote is that in most of the world that is all those countries where brown people live, people share their sleeping quarters! In some cultures men may live in separate parts of the house than women or
    the tent or floor is a comfortable place for people too sleep at any time of the day or night. In America children are kept like pets or dolls. In the rest of the world they work as hard as adults at school and at home. In many poor countries children work as adults and have no school or play to speak of. Regardless, when a grandfather or granduncle of someone you barely know or your own comes to visit do you hesitate to allow them to doze off over tea? Would you share allow an elderly man to share a bed with a man half his age? Of course you would. All i was attempting to say is that America is not a wonderful country for people who live in the real world. Americans like you are so small minded, so myopic that you glean most of your knowledge from a television in your kitchen while you feed your fat face with processed food made in china.
    Read what the two have you have written and then reread my original post.
    You should go have yourselves dropped over Afghanistan or better yet Darfur and bring your self rightous purity to the innocents that need it the most.
    Michael Jackson is not a criminal.
    America the media is .
    Khalil Gibran the wise poet you have just slandered is an architect of peace you poor
    silly hind end of a sheep.

    On Friendship

    And a youth said, “Speak to us of Friendship.”

    Your friend is your needs answered.

    He is your field which you sow with love and reap with thanksgiving.

    And he is your board and your fireside.

    For you come to him with your hunger, and you seek him for peace.

    When your friend speaks his mind you fear not the “nay” in your own mind, nor do you withhold the “ay.”

    And when he is silent your heart ceases not to listen to his heart;

    For without words, in friendship, all thoughts, all desires, all expectations are born and shared, with joy that is unacclaimed.

    When you part from your friend, you grieve not;

    For that which you love most in him may be clearer in his absence, as the mountain to the climber is clearer from the plain.

    And let there be no purpose in friendship save the deepening of the spirit.

    For love that seeks aught but the disclosure of its own mystery is not love but a net cast forth: and only the unprofitable is caught.

    And let your best be for your friend.

    If he must know the ebb of your tide, let him know its flood also.

    For what is your friend that you should seek him with hours to kill?

    Seek him always with hours to live.

    For it is his to fill your need, but not your emptiness.

    And in the sweetness of friendship let there be laughter, and sharing of pleasures.

    For in the dew of little things the heart finds its morning and is refreshed”

    Of course Sue’s last words are on target. “America has no need or use for people like you.” Neither does she have any use for her first children the indigenous peoples
    eg ” Native Americans”. She hasn’t any need or use for people that dare to point out the discrepencies between nationalism and humanity!
    Ive never molested a child and neither have you. Its a terrible crime. It would never so much as occur to most people in the world to do such a thing. But small minded bigoted people such as yourselves
    pinned it onto the worlds most famous individual. Like it or not the entire world watched that trial. And it said alot of things about the strength of OUR American democracy and the demoralizing self aggrendizing fallouts of celebrity. Moreover, the international tar and feathring of a world beloved poet and performance artist musician revealed that ugly ignorant bigot that persecutes with innuendo and used the court of public opinion to assasinate the credibility- to justify the marginalization of non Caucasian contribution especially when it comes to putting those progeny of slaves and red Induns back in their place.
    shame on you little miss betty crocker.
    no more shortening in your cake.
    An intellect needs to excercise to live up to the bounty endowed it by the Lord Evolution.

  6. roseena Says:

    Maahes,
    Spare us your melodramatic spew of garbage – You are an angry and biased man with ill views of America and Americans. Maybe the misunderstanding was yours little one, I said you did not appreciate America and therefore, in my opinion, are not worthy of OUR great land and should consider relinquishing your American residence. I cannot help to wonder if you just gave the people in this forum an evil disturbing glimpse of a hateful soul, similar to a terrorist creature, your views and thoughts are frightening and more than frightening, they are sad. Maahes, MJ is not a god, he is not an almighty star the entire world knows and loves. He was on trial for valid reasons, he was found not guilty, he walks free today – lose your chip, lose your anger, maybe then you stand a chance of seeing clearly, hearing clearly, and not being so pathetically guilty of what you accuse others of: prejudice, anger, stupidity, lack of depth, and bigotry. You hate America because we are great, we are strong, we are fair, we are united – do not hate us for what you are not. You cram your sloppy words together into a lengthy exasperated post, most of which is silly and pointless, running your mouth to the point you lost your ability to hear or comprehend. Mahhes, do you not realize, the country and culture that you slandered is the reason that you and I and others are able to speak freely of our views and have the freedom to migrate between countries, and have the freedom to participate in a forum – do you get my point?

  7. Sue Says:

    Just for your information… I am part “native american”.. and VERY proud of my heritage. I have PLENTY of use for my first children.. they are my ancestors.
    Before you make wild and blind statements, you should get to know your subject matter first.

    You said, “What I wrote is that in most of the world that is all those countries where brown people live, people share their sleeping quarters! ” Sorry.. I can’t find that in your original statement. what I did find was “I live in Egypt and the USA. In Egypt and most countries in the world, young boys become fast friends and sidekicks to unrelated men who are visiting or have resources they don’t. They share their days with you and they even try to stay up through the night. I cant remember the last time I spent a night entirely by myself in Egypt. In rich luxury villas or on blankets in the desert there has always been some one that fell asleep beside me and since this is the way we have lived for thousands of years I dont question it”.. now even reading through the lines, I don’t think it states “brown people share sleeping quarters”?? Or are we to “guess” at your meanings?
    The only person I know of that keeps their children like “pets or dolls” as you put it is MICHAEL JACKSON. My children were brought up in a home where they did chores daily, went to school, learned to mind their manners and their elders. They were never considered as a doll or pet, just the joy of my life and it was my pleasure to help them into adulthood by teaching them right from wrong.. and letting them learn from thier mistakes.

    Attacking me personally is really a little crass and uncalled for. You don’t know me, you dont’ know if i’m “fat’ as you put it.. “eating processed food from China”.. that one really made me laugh. Nor do I have a tV in my kitchen!!

    Your statement, “All i was attempting to say is that America is not a wonderful country for people who live in the real world. ” insults all of us Americans.
    So let me stoop to your level for a minute.. You are a POMPAS ASS!….

    I will end as I did before, with Roseena’s statement which you should read and adhere to, “America is a wonderful country and as an American, i would support, protect, defend it, and if a person has negative views of our country, they do not deserve the privilege of living here. “

  8. numenarh Renders his opinion. Says:

    America is very cool. The end.

  9. Maahes Says:

    Well written Sue. I was on a bender I suppose. I was reacting to the Roseena comments on visceral level. I have no right to but added the crisco television fat people comment for levity’s sake. I used presuppositional bias to make a claim that I was hypothetically assuming to be the case. Just as the initial post was suggesting that Jackson should not visit Bahrain because that is a Moslem country. THe idea I was getting is that a presuppositional bias is justified because the terrorists are against America.
    For your information as if it mattered, my family is Copt and have suffered all sorts of inhumane treatment over the last few centuries due to friction between cultures that is between pious ignorance and educated empathy versus Copt against Moslem or the other way around. Bigoted ignorance loves company and it silences any dissent with name calling or worse.
    I detest crimes against humanity. War is the enemy not the soldiers. But soldiers are being lined up to perpetuate more atrocities. ‘
    Our earth has generated many great poets. A few even came from the near east /western Asia. For example Rumi the mystic who engenders tolerance and light. Khalil Gibran is another who begged that people shrug off pious ignorance and to seek the mind and heart’s greatest potential.
    Michael Jackson is not one of my favorite
    artists and I do not own one of his albums. Im a Pink Floyd sort of guy.
    Micki Free and Peter Gabriel Led Zepplin that sort of thing. Im not out in the desert making home made bombs and raping little boys as has been insinuated by some of these comments.
    However, regardless of what I think or my tastes, my children Love Michael Jackson and when I was visiting Egypt recently the one television in the central meeting square of our family village was crowded with children and adults of all ages. THey were watching with open mouths to Nancy Graceless and Diane Cubic Zarconian not only repeating the salacious unsubstianted and eventually disproven tabloid goddip, they also were spewing the most banal, vapid, insiduously bigoted commentary that held to light and to the entire satelittle tv owning global community what a bunch of backward ass goat ropers the real power brokers are in the media.
    There have been no apologies for what the media did to make a buck that have almost certainly traumitized the entire Jackson family. And none will be forthcomign because they are not Caucasian. They have no real rights in the court of public opinion. At least the law was obliged to see justice through due process. When people write all this ridicuous stuff they forget that the rest of the world the ones that have had all their resources exploited by rich powerful ones like ours- they have opinions, insight and perceptions that matter as well. TO you and maybe most of the blog public Jackson is a monster that got away with raping children. But let me tell you something oh large rightious ones,
    the people of the village were dumbstruck when Nancy Graceless made an unprofessional and unethical remark about the likelihood of a grown man sharing his sleeping quarters with a young boy not related to him- inferring that he must have had sexual relations with that child. It was a shock to the entire clan. No one had prepared the children for the assault of modern American tv. And America doesnt care that the people who still produce their fine Egyptian cotton- for your Martha Stewart linens and Gap teeshirts your Banana Republic dungarees - those impoverished brown people never imagined that someone could do such a thing, and because they heard it on television I bet half believed it. THe children of course, the ones that sleep where they may, were standing their confused. What on earth was everyone talking about. What happened? I would wager that the largest majority didnt have any idea of what sexual molestation entailed. It is not appropriate to make sexual objects of children nor is appropriate to assault them with all its salacious details especially when it is a bunch of money grubbing gossip mongers using a famous poet beloved by the world to make a point.

  10. numenarh Renders his opinion. Says:

    Maahes. If you hate America just say so.
    You seem to be both standing beside and stepping away from some of your comments. As for the onslaught of America T.V. well it was made for those whom wish to see it.

  11. numenarh Renders his opinion. Says:

    am not a Michael Jackson Fan. I do not consider him a god. What I said had you actually read it carefully, is that in America where i was actually born, there is a tendency to wrap the mildew blanket of puritans a little too tightly.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    Maahes can you explain to me exactly what “blanket of Puritans” means to you?
    Mildew? I swish my finger at you in disapproval. Are you trying to just anger as many people as you can or what?

  12. roseena Says:

    Mahhes, choose a stand. I said in an earlier post I felt you exposed, through your ramblings, a glimpse of inner thoughts that could be similar to the hatred a terrorist has towards Americans, now after reading your recent post, you given me the impression your all over charts (if not off) with eclectic views. You verbalized your contempt for American society; yet claim to be a humanitarian? How can one be a humanitarian and not have respect and appreciation for a country to promotes humanity throughout the world? You said your family has suffered due to bigoted ignorance, which is truly awful Mahees, however that does not justify fear and loathing directed towards America. The media. The media sucks. I will admit to that and we can agree on that fact. However, the media is a double-edged sword and is used as a vehicle by both/all sides. And it seems the media is the only true winner every time (ratings, ratings, ratings!). The need to “inform the children” of what you interpret as an assault of American TV is ridiculous Mahees. If hearing MJ sleeps with young boys is an appalling claim for the impoverished brown people to hear, then how in the hell do they handle the “real-world” and real issues of value? And I just do not buy the thought that this clan of people, as you referred to them, was unaware of what child molestation involved. And I wish you would quit referring to people as “impoverished brown people” I find that offensive. And now you attack our clothing industry. What the hell is the significance of gap t-shirts have in the big picture? Are you insinuating we (the media, Americans) are abusive because we not only have the “impoverished” manufacture clothing, but we add insult to the injutt by talking badly about Michael? I don’t get it? You responded to Sue claiming the nasty comments you made were justifiable because you were reacting to my post in an uncivilized fashion and I that is bullshit Mahees. I would assume you owned those thoughts of America well before you read my posting.
    And finally, if you are a “pink floyyd” kind-a-guy, maybe it is time to go play dark side of the moon cd, smoke a joint, and mellow the hell out.

  13. Maahes Says:

    My God you ladies are on the warpath arent you! I can assure you Im not all over the map. You made the assumption that I am an Anti American. I am not an Anti American. SO looking for something to quantify your bias falls in your bag of responsibilities not my own. Read at how hard you are laboring to discredit my typed words attempting to damage my credibility to any third party that might read your attack. Don’t ask anyone much less an American to pretend that America is out defending the world and bringing it freedom. There is much more being air dropped over Afghanistan and Iraq than freedom and democracy.
    I was born and raised in the USA on a horse ranch founded in the 1800’s.
    The people I grew up with hve lived in the county since the 1800’s and many the AMerican INdians have lived there alot longer so spare me with your derisive tripe. Im no more a terrorist than you are a stupid hind end of a sheep. In fact, I detest terrorism. I also detest willful ignorance. But I won’t hate and I won’t pretend to know more than i do. Hate belongs to inhumanity and projecting my ignorance onto other people makes me an ass.
    I was attempting in an enormous waste of my time I can see, to help you understand how off alot of Puritanical thinking is. But then if you are under the influence of moldy rye adolescents start looking like witches, Indians look like demons and the next thing you know Puritans are holding witch trials where they burn their own children alive and practice genocide against the same people that kept them alive through their first hard winters by generously providing food.
    When I write that the American clothing industry depends on Egyptian cotton I suppose I should be more frank and say If you don’t want me here because I disagree with your myopic bigotry then boycott our cotton too. And while you are at it why dont you insult our way of life and try shoving these disgusting perverted witch trial fantasys up your own self righteous bums and not mine.
    My point stands. You dont find anything wrong with your media making an international witch trial that persectured versus prosecuted a world renowned figure. When he went to take refuge with the Crown Prince of Bahrein an ally of USA military by the way, you suggest that this guy is somehow less than a good American. I step in and point out that a wider angle lense may be of value and you harpys attack my humanity suggesting I may be a closet terrorist!
    Ladies, honestly have you EVER traveled outside your country? Have you ever shared a meal with people of a different culture of your own? Can you honestly say that you respect other cultural perspectives outside of your hegemony?
    And lastly, what upsets you about men sleeping with young boys?
    I’ve lived in this country for a very long time. I think that sleeping means sleep.
    DO you mean to suggest that everyone that sleeps with children is really a child raping pervert? I can tell it doesnt matter to you that the impovershed brown people of the world that share their eating and sleeping quarters on a regular basis and would never entertain so much as a thought of this terrible exploitive crime against children- you dont care that your myopic self serving drivel insults three quarters of the world..
    THat’s right ladies you are in the minority. The rest of the world is still trying to understand why you continue to act like puritans. The world is not evil until you make it so.

  14. roseena Says:

    Mahhes – The only warpath is the one you are traveling, along with your baggage of resentment and confusion. Mahees, you asked if I ever journeyed internationally, my answer to that is no. I am no less of a person or have less significant views because of that. I have exposure to many cultures and diversity in my own country. World travel is not a prerequisite in becoming informed and forming valid opinions and outlooks. Scratch that “world travel” theory mahees, your views are not superior because you travel between Egypt and USA. Why do you claim you are not anti-American? I have not heard you make one statement about America that would tell us otherwise? What good do you have to contribute verbally or otherwise to the US. I have not heard it yet. You questioned our level of respect for different cultures, and to that I would say it exists. Who is making the assumptions and insinuations now Mahees? Is insinuating closed-mindedness and bigotry any less offensive than me referring to you as anti-American? If anything, my assumption of you can be supported by the dismal garbage you have posted.
    If you detested terrorism as you claim, you would be supportive of the United States.
    Lastly, the sleeping with kids issue. Mahees, no one criticized sleeping arrangements fo the various cultures of the world, and how dare you assume that the united states be more “mindful” and “careful” of what we put individuals on trial for, in fear of stepping on toes or offending another culture. Sorry mahees, that is NOT what the American system was founded on. Maybe if the media would have said “mj is on trial for fondeling boys and sharing porn with boys, and jacking off boys” (instead of focusing on the “sleeping with boys”) maybe then the impoverished people that you claim were so offended, would have understood.

  15. Sue Says:

    Maahes,
    I just have a question…your statement

    “I have no right to but added the crisco television fat people comment for levity’s sake.”
    Who’s levity? You think fat people are funny? And you call me a bigot?
    I too wish you would quit referring to people as “impoverished brown people” It’s offensive.

    As a matter of fact, I have traveled and lived outside of the US. I’ve been to Europe and lived in Germany for a year. I shared several lovely meals with local friends I met in Germany. I’ve also been to Mexico (lots of “brown” people there) My son’s father in law is from Mexico, and I’ve learned quite a bit about their culture in the last two years since the wedding. My late husband was Canadian. Their culture is simular to ours in some ways.. and very different in others. I spent many happy times with his family in Canada.
    But as Roseena said, just because I’ve traveled does not make me a better, more informed person. You see.. all of the cultures I’ve visited outside the US.. also RESIDE in the US. You can learn about just about any culture just by meeting your neighbors. But if it makes you feel superior that you are “well traveled”, then by all means..brag about it.
    Since your very first post, you’ve done nothing but put down and attack America, American’s, and anyone that disagrees with you.

    You said, ” Don’t ask anyone much less an American to pretend that America is out defending the world and bringing it freedom. There is much more being air dropped over Afghanistan and Iraq than freedom and democracy.” Got one for you… BULLSHIT. That’s all it is and you seem to be full of it.

  16. Julin Says:

    “Maahes. If you hate America just say so.
    You seem to be both standing beside and stepping away from some of your comments. As for the onslaught of America T.V. well it was made for those whom wish to see it.”

    This thread has a lot of interesting stuff in it, but I don’t have time to respond to it all. So I picked this quote because I think it sums up the general attitude being directed against Mahee. Plus I know Numenarh in real life, so it’s only fitting. :)

    This comment has three parts. First, it implies that Mahee hates America. Second, it states he is sidesteping away from some of his statements. And third, it justifies American media coverage as “made for those who want to watch it.”

    I want to address the first part first. I’ve read all of Mahee’s posts in here, and I agree there is some anti-american sentiment in it. Well, I’m American myself and I have some pretty heafty issues with American myself. However, there’s some sort of built in defensivness that’s crept into American culture. We don’t like to see people who we see as “outsiders” criticise us. We become automatically defensive for some reason.

    I think some of the things Mahee said are right. American’s do seem to lack empathy in general. Some tend to treat children as “toys” (remember the Jean-Bennet case?), though I wouldn’t say it’s a large trend.

    Without going through the arguments line by line let me just say this: Just because someone doesn’t like America doesn’t mean they’re wrong. I would urge you, Mahee, to try to divorce your problems with American culture in general from your specific problems with the Jackson case, and I would urge Roseena, Sue, Numenarh et. al. to try to deal with points brought up by Mahee without the assumtion of bias based on a few anti-American comments. True discourse is driven by facts, not by accusations, generalizations and assumptions.

    That this discussion even turned into a Muslim vs America issue is pretty disturbing to me honestly. What does any of that have to do with the Jackson case?

  17. roseena Says:

    julin - ouch. i will respond to this later. until then… i will say this. You are right about the built-in self-defense mechanism. I will/would defend my country in an instant against anything or anyone i see as a threat to our freedom and safety.

  18. roseena Says:

    Julin-
    Just wondering if you know Numenarh in “real life” what does make this place? Are we not real? Are we mere forum freaks in a pretend world of cyber space? lol

    Ok Julin, if you agree and notice the anti-American tone in Maahes’ posts, are you not offended by that? I am. You made reference to you having hefty issues with America and I consider having an issue, or longing for “something” to be different or improved in our country is understandable and it is not anti-American. So I would assume your feelings towards our country is not driven by the disgust that Mahes seems to express. That is the difference. You question the self defense that is built into our culture. I think self defense is an essential part of life. Without the bravery and need to defend what is right, or what believe is right, there cant be growth or freedom. Right? You agreed with Maahes in supporting Americans seem to lack empathy. I totally disagree. I think we are very compassionate and understanding. Our country aids other countries all the time Julin. I am not saying we shouldn’t continue to do more, we should. But I am saying we are a caring country and I will even go a step further and say individuals are compassionate. I will confess that I may have hastily voiced my opinion on bahrain by lumping it into the “terrorist” category. I still think MJ should not have selected that place to vacation. Why did he have the need to make a political statement and raise controversy. Why does that bother you the discussion has taken a turn into an American/Muslim issue? Is it not ok to talk about touchy issues, disagree with people and maybe learn something or share a pov?
    Hey Numenarh – since you know Julin in “real life in the real world” can you tell me is Julin always the arbitrator and so rational? That’s a good thing julin.

  19. Julin Says:

    Heh, well the “in real life” thing was just a saying. :) No offense intended. I simply thought I’d use Numenarh’s quote since I agreed with him last time, disagreeing with him this time kind of balances it I think. But anyway, on to business.

    I’m not really offended by anti-American sentiments. Let me try to elaborate.

    I do agree that America has a lot of good things about it. All things considered, there isn’t anywhere in the world that I would rather live. I agree that America has a lot of wonderful, nice, compassionate, generally good people. We give more internationl aid than any other country in the world. This is a fact that no one disputes. Another fact, however, is that we give one of the smallest percentages per capita, especially for a fully developed country.

    I try to see how outsiders see our country. We use up something along the lines of 70% of all the worlds resources (can’t remember the exact figure), and make up some miniscule portion of the overall population. We exert our forign policy in a very heavy-handed way, often tying our forign aid to “reforms” in the contries where the aid is going.

    Now often this is a good thing. There are some things that are universally right and wrong. For instance minorities shouldn’t be oppressed, everyone should have a fair chance at success in life, etc. Really, Thomas Jefferson said it about as well as it can be said: “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. Encourages countries to reform their systems where people have these things is a very positive thing, and I have absolutely no problem with it.

    However, often times the policy changes we require with the aid aren’t nearly so black and white. Often we tie aid to capitalist reforms in developing countries, and captialism isn’t such a right and wrong issue. Capitalism often isn’t good for developing countries because they can’t compete in the world market for a variety of reasons, some being a lack of infrastructure, a lack of effective governmental organization or a city-oriented demographic structure (for instance in many countries the vast majority of the populations still live on rural farms, not in the cities). So these countries end up getting exploited by wealthier nations for their raw resources.

    Anyway, without getting really deeply into the problems involved in industrial globalization, let me just sum up by saying that I can easily see how people outside the US can get a very, very bad impression of us. There are things that we do outside our borders that are, if not bad, then at the very least some shade of grey. Put that on top of our cultural hegemony (which countries really can’t blame us for often, but which is probably at least as easy to resent) and it’s easy to imagine reasons people would not like the US.

    So, as far as the self-defense thing goes, yes, it’s very natural and generally a good thing. I will vigerously defend the things that are good about America, and I think most Americans feel that way. However, what I was trying to get across is it seems to me that sometimes Americans tend to disregard actual valid criticisms from people outside the US simply because they are from outside the US.

    For example, when the French criticised our war in Iraq, they were doing so on some very solid grounds which now, in retrospect, were largely correct. However, since France is fairly snooty and generally probably the most vocal anti-American democracy, Americans tend to not like the French. It’s only natural, after all, they don’t seem to like us much. But that made it easy to toss aside their arguments as just more anti-American sentiment without actually examining what they were saying. And now we’re paying for it.

    Finally, to answer your last question, the reason it bothers me that this turned into an American vs Muslim issue, is that it seemed, to me, to not necissarily be very germane to the issue. I have absolutely no problem debating important issues, and the issue of growing international anti-American sentiment (especially from radical religeous groups) is probably one of the most important problems that Americans will face in the next 50 years. However, I don’t like the idea of every argument getting pulled into these hot-button issues. Jackson went to Bahrain, a very progressive and liberal, but predominantly Muslim country. The idea that people would be offended by a public figure simply visiting a Muslim country is disturbing to me. Because just as there are a lot of very good things and some very bad things about America, there are also some good things and some bad things about any Muslim country. That they are all simply lumped into the “terrorist” catergory by many Americans can’t be a good thing.

    You say that it was a bad thing for Jackson to go to Bahrain because he had no need to make a political statment and raise controversy. I would argue that there is no reason that going to Bahrain should raise contraversy, and if it makes a statement, then it seems to me that statement is many Muslim countries are progressive, safe, and very open and friendly with the US, and that he is open and friendly with them as well. I don’t think that’s a bad statement to make.

    (p.s. thanks for the rational comment. I try to be! :) )

  20. Julin Says:

    damn, messed up my italics. I guess there’s no way to fix that. :/ Oh well, sorry.

  21. Julin Says:

    Where did that response post by Maahes go? That was a good response post. Sometimes things seem to disappear around here. :(

  22. Rachel Says:

    I haven’t deleted any comments but the posts have to be about Michael Jackson and any that aren’t are deleted.

  23. roseena Says:

    rachel - that is crazy to delete non-mj topics. All the posts or topics stem from or cycle back to the MJ saga. Besides, if you (or site admin) doesn’t rethink that rule, this site will eventually become defunct. Isn’t the censorship of posts defeating the purpose of a forum?
    Julin’s reponse to Maahes’ post was interesting and both held many opportunites for stimulating debate. whatever.

  24. Maahes Says:

    That is a pretty petty and unethical way to deal with a debate = removing posts. I respectfully request that you remove all my posts as there is an inbalance in the manner in which the thread appears now. You have manipulated the
    forum to insure that one side of a debate is heard and not the others. What do you have to say for yourself?

  25. roseena Says:

    maahes - i agree with you - it is very unfair to have posts removed. Along with yours, Numenarh’s, Julin’s and mine were also removed too. It just wasn’t your threads, all threads that were reposnding to and ddirected to you were exed as well.
    Rachel may have killed the forum with one fail swoop of the delete key.

  26. roseena Says:

    Try this site! We have an alternative place to talk if the topics we choose to discuss are non-MJ,we can chat here without the fear of being wasted by the delete key. I have been chatting with Numenarh already in the blog. Try it http://www.blogger.com/profile/10780918
    Sue, Maahes, or anyone else interested.


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